訪談:賀馬汀 ╳ 設計簿

時間:2015年7月28日
地點:mh - international architects 賀馬汀設計有限公司
訪談&整理:周佳怡、李吟蕙
 
Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.Antoine De Saint 
 
訪談當天Martin Hagel 賀馬汀建築師跟我們分享了他這幾年在中國、臺灣參加的幾個非常精彩的案子。賀馬汀建築師是德國人,目前在台灣有一間設計公司,主要業務在台灣跟中國大陸。賀馬汀建築師來台灣之前,曾經在美國、英國、日本、中國工作過,是非常具有世界觀的建築師。過程中,最讓我們印象深刻的是賀馬汀建築師對於設計的熱情跟堅持。以下是訪談紀錄:
 
Q:請問你在國外的經驗?不同地方的做事方式?案子執行時的方式?
A每個地方其實都有一點像,不一樣的地方是,德國公司剛開始在developing idea的時候,會定的比較清楚,最後面不太容易變動原先的direction。
在美國,會比較聽從老闆的想法。在德國,有不適合的地方,我們會去討論,相較之下,德國的criticism比較welcome。在台灣的整體的圖面溝通可能不夠完整就開始施工,可以知道一個vision,visual concept很酷,但實際施工時可能就會有一些問題,德國在overall engineering part平面圖剖面圖等等都會交代得很清楚。台灣比較喜歡expressive的建築,但台灣在施工方面可能無法做那麼expressive的東西,容易產生問題。德國就比較偏向technic requirements。
 
Q:德國比較像日本嗎?
A日本和德國有一點點像,但日本的tradition比較不會去變動,但在德國,如果這個tradition不適合,我們會嘗試去做一些變動。
 
Q:國外事務所和台灣不一樣的地方在哪,你們的強項優點?
A台灣會分很多部門,會有一個設計部、construction department、construction documents department….所以台灣很多人都很會做一個specialist,德國比較多是
general educated偏向generalist。在台灣、美國,如果案子從設計部出來,再給施工部門,很多人不懂設計的idea是什麼,所以我覺得那個detail和idea是沒有被延續下去的。很多人會覺得德國的建築比較conclusive,我覺得有一個很大的原因是,我們從設計到工地,我們都用一個idea貫穿整個設計到施工。有些人覺得台灣沒有很好的設計,我覺得不對,這個有一個原因是因為specialist,設計和施工之間沒有延續,做出來的東西才有落差。
 
Q:會不會特別去看基地?
A我覺得去基地很重要,用map或earth看照片有時候無法感受現場的感覺,我通常不會只去一次,然後會選擇不同的時間點去看。去基地不僅是用眼睛看也要用耳朵聽,要打開你的五官。每一塊地都是特別的,有不同特色,而建築和基地的關係很密切,他們是一起的。
 
Q:台灣是案子做一做會有設計做完交給施工 那德國是?
A:我們也有consultants,但不會像台灣分的那麼清楚,設計就是設計,construction就是construction。所以你自己要很清楚,每一個設計它的目的、原因是什麼,設計的每個環節都要思考很多層面,不是只有design還有construction的部分。
 
Q:請你談談交通大學停車棚規畫設計
A:One building, one idea,我喜歡一個設計只用一個idea,所以在這個設計裡面,不管是洞的開口、樓梯、柱子,我都用一個idea去貫穿它,在設計的時候,每個地方我都會想得很清楚,到後面交給施工人員執行時,才會不會lost that idea。這個設計主要的idea是Floating,我的牆也是梁也是柱,減少柱子,讓空間有地方停車,不刻意往地面層上加建,而是向下挖,然後用凹折的樓板形式,讓風可以流動。牆上大量的開洞不僅是在視線上讓停車的人可以互相看到,也能減少停車棚內的噪音。我也study了很多牆面的pattern,去確定洞的每個位子、燈的位子、內部柱的位子…。在剛開始設計的時候,只有一個idea,但我們嘗試用同一個idea去延伸很多方法,在每個地方找一個做法,so maybe it’s our philosophy “one idea is enough.” 但one idea is enough還是得要花很多時間去思考每一個做法。你設計的時候也要了解結構,知道每個engineer在做什麼,對我來說這都是part of architecture design,這樣設計才能更好的被實行,達到你想要的樣子。
 
Q:請問中國的中國人壽數據中心的設計概念。
A我在gmp的時候,設計和施工我都有參與到,雖然在一個大公司,但其實滿像自己的事務所在做案子的,但在台灣、美國,可能要找很久才能找到這種設計施工都可以做的公司。中國傳統的四合院是對外封閉,向內開放,所以在這個案子我們也有使用到一點這個想法去執行。後來施工完成的樣子,和我們原先預定的樣子其實是很像的,這就是前面提到,因為德國部門分化沒有那麼明顯,因此設計和施工上較不會有差距的原因。在這個案子,我們幾乎都是用round corner貫穿每個角落,我們沒有去加新的東西,而是嘗試用一樣的vocabulary去執行,從building的大外觀,甚至到燈的造型、桌子的造型。這個案子花了三年的時間,每一個給業主的方案,都要是最好的且要和自己設計的direction統一,如果給業主的idea裡面有不好的,他挑到不好的那個,你的設計就不能貫穿了。我覺得一個好的建築師,要很清楚自己每個設計的原因,"為什麼"很重要。
 
Q:你們的創作理念?
A:我們的design philosophy是不要做設計,這聽起來有點奇怪,其實意思是,我們希望可以把事情用比較簡單的方式處理,像我們的工作室不特別去搭ceiling,門板是有1 use 2 functions,我們不特別額外加上東西.這個philosophy可以用Antoine De Saint的”Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away..”來思考。我們的想法是,我們還可以拿掉什麼,we take things away, we don’t add. 很多人覺得good design 是add more things但我們覺得you make good design when you take away those.
Architecture doesn’t happen on paper.你做設計可以畫很漂亮的圖、厲害的photoshop,但工地的實務才是最重要的,做設計還是要了解實際的層面,最後實際的成果,那才是最重要的。不是說沒有technology不能畫設計,可是你要去學,不是只在紙上講設計,你必須去工地和師傅開會,他們知道很多施工的知識,那些都是你要去學習、了解的。
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Paper Interview  
Martin Hagel ╳ Sirjibook
1. 談一下為何選擇建築設計這個工作?
What’s the reason for you to choose architecture design?

on 1. I guess I always enjoyed building, even as a kid building tree houses, bunkers, etc.
I guess I always found the idea of creating the environment I would be living in very tempting.
 
2. 請問你受到誰或是哪個運動潮流的影響最多? (音樂、文學、藝術,或其他)
What work or who is the most important inspire you on design? Which movement? Any journey? (For example it could be literature, architecture, music, fine art, or other aspects of life.)

There are so many influences in many fields or journeys.
The Russian Suprematist Idea of Abstraction and Artists like Kasimir Malevich, El Lissitzky.
Artists like Dan Flavin, Gordon Matta Clark, Paul Klee, Oskar Schiele etc. etc. etc.
The architecture of Mies van der Rohe, Peter Zumthor, de Moura,
The works of Cloud Gate both in dance and set design.
I’m sorry I don’t think I can name one most important, I think it’s a sum of influences, events, experiences that shape us in who and what we are and how we operate.
 
3. 你最欣賞哪位建築師? Is any Architect your icon?
No.
 
4. 事務所的理念?What is the philosophy of your office?
Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
 
5. 談談設計的發想演繹?Can you tell us the design process?
I adapt different processes according to the task at hand. It Might be a generative system derived from the banality of code restrictions and building brief requirements, or a process that is driven by the performance of the final design rather than more or less superficial aesthetic flavors. There might be particular focus on the “Genius Loci” that poses the strongest factor in the process. A symbiosis of all of the above, in short it really varies depending on the project.
 
6. 談談設計的設計理念?What’s the design concept for project?
Similar to the concept of one stroke in Chinese calligraphy I like the concept of “one idea” for one building but I think this is to a degree similar to question 5.
 
7. 談談設計的改有甚麼特色?Can you show the design features for us?
[As shown through the scooter garage or china life insurance shanghai during the visit at my office]
 
8. 在思考設計時,想賦予它何種品味風格與內涵?how to give a building style and soul?
I think creating tension in the design to the local specificities or requirements and clarifying this tension creates a soul for the building.
 
9. 如何創造出建築與空間的時尚性?How to create a building and space fashion?
Of course buildings do happen in certain time periods and are in effect dateable and subject to fashion, modernism, brutalism, de-constructivism etc.. Nevertheless I actually would like to ask: how to avoid fashion on building and space. I think that might be the more interesting question as fashion tends to be quickly outlived but questions of sustainability and careful use of resources, material and the environment should lead to a more lasting solution. I think it’s an obligation of architects to be more substantial and exceed fashion.
 
10. 設計最獨到之處? What’s the most unique design or project?
A “sculpture” I did.
 
11. 如果用一句話來形容此案設計會是什麼?
If you use one word to describe this design, what will it be?

Disobedient welding”.
Sorry 2 words.
 
12. 您認為建築設計最重要元素是甚麼?
What do you think is the most important issue when designing a building?

Mostly there is not only one most important issue. But I like to question why, on both problems and solutions. Questioning the problem might offer a unique view to a solution. When we arrive at a solution, there should be a clear reason as to how we got there.
 
13. 建築師眼中,對於美的定義?As one architect, how to define“beauty”?
Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. 
 
14. 談談您建築設計生涯中滿意的作品?which one of your works that you feel it is satisfied.
Difficult question. I think “not being satisfied” is a motor for me to become better with every project? Not sure if this is a satisfactory answer…..
 
15. 建築設計生涯中特別的經驗?Is there any particular experience in your carrier?
The first building I built while I was still a student I worked with a wood framer who was ill with terminal cancer. It was clear that this would likely be his last building while it was my first. I think due to that this building will always remain special for me. I think I learned quite a bit in both design and execution….
 
16. 最令您感到驚艷的作品有哪些?What works make you feel amazing?
I think when someone goes well beyond predictability or a preset expectation the work has a chance to amaze, both positive and negative.  
 
17. 或者建築設計新趨勢?or new trend for architecture design?
Parametric, self-organizing, 0 emission, 3d printed, natural, algae powered, solar cooled, invisible, BIM-ed to the brim, super low rise, work, live, rural, cities? I’m really not sure.
 
18. 談談您的建築理想? Tell us about your ideal architecture world.
This one with all its obstacles and limitations and flaws,
I sincerely believe that good things can be done here and now!
 
19. 您認為:建築最終極的追求是什麼?What’s the final destination of design?
Final is such an absolute. There will likely never be a final as we work in an ever evolving world there will be ever different design requirements, I think as there are so many different designers there is always an evolving variety of solutions to one problem. Isn’t that what keeps it interesting?
 
20. 理想的生活美學? What’s your aesthetic in life? Travel with little baggage….
 
21. 可以分享您個人的嗜好?藝術、音樂、旅行等等 can you share your hobbies with us?
For example art, music, and travel.
Traveling and spending time with my family, a good movie, good music, cooking with friends, a good conversation, the simple things….?